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being enjoys killing. Unlike other creatures, it has no intraspecifi c inhibition of killing. The only thing that stops us from harming each other is morality, trained by our upbringing. Under the wrong conditions, this inhibition threshold can be lowered to such an extent that we are capable of all kinds of atrocities, from gang rape and cannibalism to the Holocaust. Propaganda plays a central role here. It ensures that we no longer perceive the other person as a human being, but as someone who does not belong to our species and therefore deserves to die. So, yes: we can all become perpetrators. In your research, you found that, on average, only around 20 to 30 per cent of people actively oppose harmful systems. Which factors play a role here? Solmaz Khorsand wants to make more people think about why they join certain groups. Photo credit: Luiza Puiu Solmaz Khorsand on rebellion amid conformity We are all followers. This is the unsettling thesis of author and journalist Solmaz Khorsand’s latest book, Untertan – Von Braven und Rebellischen Lemmingen (Subjugated – By Good and Rebellious Lemmings), in which she combines historical events, sociological fi ndings and philosophical consideration. She speaks to people from artists in exile to fetishists about why they rebel – or submit. She tells Apropos how sincerity towards oneself can become an exit strategy from conformity. By Sandra Bernhofer Apropos: Your opening line is, “There is only one way to begin this book. With disgust. With self-disgust.” When was the last time you felt disgusted with yourself? Solmaz Khorsand: To be honest, in the promotion of this book. My unintentional adaptation to the mechanisms of the book world can be interpreted as lemming-like. Of course I want my book to be read, and I am very happy about any interest from the media and the public. At the same time, part of me has to bend when it comes to promoting myself and constantly posting on Page 16 social media. All I want to do is write. How did you come to research group dynamics and followership? I belong to the group of people in Austria who came to terms early on with how much cruelty still exists under the surface in a society that consists almost exclusively of descendants of perpetrators and enablers of the Second World War, and how this cruelty manifests itself. I was lucky that I went to schools where we studied a lot of literature that dealt directly or indirectly with regimes, such as Animal Farm by George Orwell or The Rhinoceroses by Eugène Ionesco. I’ve never been interested in the leaders, but in those who run with them. In this respect, the topic has always bothered me and also scared me, because as a society, we don’t face up to it enough. Because the theme is not particularly topical right now, as many people who have read my book tell me, but always has been. By using examples such as Nazism or the genocide in Srebrenica, you demonstrate that people can turn to cruelty quite quickly. Can anyone become a perpetrator? I spoke to the German trauma researcher Thomas Elbert, among others, about this. He has discovered that the human A popular fi eld for research into the perpetrators of the Holocaust is the Hamburg Police Battalion 101. They were ordinary men, family men, ordinary dock workers who were torn from their regular jobs during the Nazi regime to murder tens of thousands of Jews between 1939 and 1943. They were not die-hard Nazis, not sadists, and yet only a dozen out of almost 500 refused to murder. Those who didn’t take part gave as a reason the fact that they were already established in their lives and didn’t have to put themselves forward to be promoted or achieve anything. This is relevant because we very often have to do things that are against our principles, especially in the workplace. We do it anyway, because otherwise we will be fi red or not promoted. These objections are justifi ed, but they are often just an excuse for not acting autonomously. The world of work is often not particularly democratic. Is it possible to change such a system? That depends on what the claim is. If it is part of the company culture that someone is humiliated by colleagues or a superior, you can very well stand up for them instead of remaining silent and thinking that it doesn’t affect you. Marginalised groups and women often believe that they can make a difference once they are at the top. Experts in organisational sociology and group dynamics have confi rmed to me that they are sitting on an illusion. In order to reach the top, they have to adapt so much to the company culture that they are usually unable to retain their autonomy in this process. Is this kind of adaptation always damaging? Customisation per se is neither bad nor good. It was important to me to show this with my rebellious lemmings, the so-called “passers-by”. The history of mankind is a story full of passers-by: people who break out of their social identity because they can pass as members of a better-off group and thus lead a self-determined life: Black people with lighter skin who passed as white in the 19th century and were thus able to escape slavery and enjoy the advantages of whiteness; members of minority religions who claim to be atheists or to belong to the majority religion. French writer Edouard Louis came from the lower classes and became a star of the French elite. To do so, he had to shed his name and dialect, learn to laugh more quietly, sneeze more quietly and have his teeth straightened. I don’t want to romanticise the idea that you have to deny yourself in order to create a better life for yourself. But you can read it as rebellion, because you are going against what was intended for you. You also quote Socrates: “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, being one, to be at odds with myself.” How can we learn to be honest with ourselves? My book is not intended to give advice, but rather food for thought. Leaving a group is often associated with existential fears – those who leave are excluded. Totalitarian regimes in particular rely on isolating people. I am in favour of developing loneliness skills. That doesn’t mean that loneliness can’t be gruelling. It is specifi cally used to break people in the form of “white torture” – isolation and sensory deprivation. But for me, at least, it’s better to be able to stand alone than to become part of an “us” that harms others. What do you want your book to achieve? I want people to ask themselves more often why they take part in certain things, why they join groups and what consequences this can have. Because far too often, we blame it on circumstances or a system and claim that we have no choice but to adapt. My book is also an accusation against those who often position themselves as innocent and pass the buck by saying, “We have been seduced by demagogues and populists” when they vote for far-right parties, as they are doing now. We should be aware of the aims of a group and that we have a responsibility to society when we consider joining one. Courtesy of Apropos / INSP.ngo Translated from German via Translators Without Borders

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